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0-1 Paint Research conclusion
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Victory Lane
Picture of Tom McGinnity
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I just cannot believe there isn't a man out there that knows this stuff.. The few years leading up to 67 were very simular.. The trim tags in 67 on all the full size cars and Chevelles etc are near identical in function.. Chevelle plant worker? Full size car ( whaddid they make in 67 like 1 million of them! )? No guy who can explain dashes and paint? confused


tom @ camaropacecars.com ( remove the space between m,@,c)
 
Posts: 13401 | Location: Arlington Mass | Registered: 01 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Victory Lane
Picture of Tom McGinnity
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Dear 67pacecartrust,

yes originaly blue


- flipfloptiger


tom @ camaropacecars.com ( remove the space between m,@,c)
 
Posts: 13401 | Location: Arlington Mass | Registered: 01 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<RickDawn67>
posted
Bob T.,

Didn't you recently sell you cowl tag on ebay for quite a bit of ching! I remember that lead to quite a discussion.... Big Grin

Wasn't that a 0-0 paint code with a "-" and fleet code too?

Can you please throw a picture of that tag up on here? Another example of a tag with both 0 and "-"

Oh... chatted with "Jr" last night. Looks like he may be bringing the trans-am down to Carlisle to hang out with us...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: <RickDawn67>,
 
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Victory Lane
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Related or not related to this subject, but I wonder if a fleet or commercial color, say like on a gas company car would have carried an 0 code? Should have, does anyone know this for fact? Perhaps this 0-2 coupe came out of some such fleet. Probably more likely some type of retail operation type fleet car.
 
Posts: 2961 | Location: Illinois | Registered: 26 August 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Victory Lane
Picture of festival
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quote:
Originally posted by MLakin:
Here's a thought. Obviously if there is a normal paint code letter on the tag they know what color to paint the car. So if a car were to recieve a non-standard paint code, i.e. a "0", how do they know what color to paint the car? They obviously would have to refer to some paperwork with the car to determine that. So if you had a "special" car that you would want special attention paid to, such as a non-standard color or maybe, just MAYBE a standard color but applied in a non-standard way (show quality finish????) how would that be indicated? That info would have to be in the cars paperwork. By putting an "0" on there it requires additional attention for additional special intructions?

P.S. In other words the dash has nothing to do with paint color, stripe color etc. The "0" covers that. The dash only has something to do with a Fleet, COPO, mechanical type things?



Mike,

I think you nailed it. Cheers


Phil@camaropacecars.com
 
Posts: 4785 | Location: Chillicothe Ohio | Registered: 05 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Victory Lane
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quote:
Should have, does anyone know this for fact?

Actually, does anyone have any proof of any of the decoding of the trim tag to be fact, or is this all educated assumptions from a mass survey?
 
Posts: 2961 | Location: Illinois | Registered: 26 August 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Victory Lane
Picture of festival
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quote:
Originally posted by Tony ( BigBlockPace ):
With the fact that direct questions were not answered.....

We are supposed to except the recreation of the wheel?

Most available info or facts can be interpreted or even spun into what you want it to mean!!


Tony,

I have not "recreated" a thing unless you think Steve is full of it too with the Canadian Mosport info? Critical research there too, and quite important as well-all stemming from The Canadian IPC/AJ Foyt Air conditioning Myth all peddled by the same myth makers who gave us "clear coat over Ermine White" myth.

TRUE or NOT??

On to your questions...OK I will bite! Please list your questions here and I will debate you on each and every one of them hello.

I might not get to answer till later, so keep checking back. Cheers


Phil@camaropacecars.com
 
Posts: 4785 | Location: Chillicothe Ohio | Registered: 05 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Victory Lane
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quote:
I have not "recreated" a thing unless you think Steve is full of it too with the Canadian Mosport info?



Nice try!

And of course I don't agree...but for conversation sake, what exact part are we talking about when it comes to Steve's effort with the MoSport report?



quote:
On to your questions...OK I will bite! Please list your questions here and I will debate you on each and every one of them


As I've said.... You don't need to swallow the hook line and sinker... I'm not interested in a debate.... You can believe whatever you want to believe! However, if you want to convince some of our fence sitting friends, you can just answer then as you see fit.... they are listed through out!

BTW..... With all of the science done on this topic... I'm curious what the camera told you the breakdowns were with the existing C-1 sample cars vs the 0-1 samples from both 03C and 04A samples....I bet everyone would love to see how they compare.... Who knows....I might find myself starting to believe!!!

Please tell this was done at least!
 
Posts: 9137 | Location: Ventura, Ca. | Registered: 05 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Victory Lane
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Tony,

I think Phil is refering to this. The Canadian car reference is that some of the VVS reports (GM Vintage Vehicle Services from Canada) for the Canadian Festival cars state ermine as the color of paint. For instance, this is the case on 238642. The GM report shows "1001AA-Special Order Ermine white" as the color of paint.

 
Posts: 2961 | Location: Illinois | Registered: 26 August 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Victory Lane
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Here is a photo of the VVS report sheet for 237512. Both of these cars are big block cars built a day apart, and shipped to Canada the same day. Another interesting peculiarity is look at where the cars were shipped, it lists 2 different cities.

 
Posts: 2961 | Location: Illinois | Registered: 26 August 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Victory Lane
Picture of festival
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Tony ( BigBlockPace ):
quote:
I have not "recreated" a thing unless you think Steve is full of it too with the Canadian Mosport info?



Nice try!

And of course I don't agree...but for conversation sake, what exact part are we talking about when it comes to Steve's effort with the MoSport report?


Steves research debunked a Myth clearly and in a manner that makes perfect sense, yet he and his assertions are not challanged. His research like the research I undertook had the same beginning from books written in the early 1990's

quote:
On to your questions...OK I will bite! Please list your questions here and I will debate you on each and every one of them


As I've said.... You don't need to swallow the hook line and sinker... I'm not interested in a debate.... You can believe whatever you want to believe! However, if you want to convince some of our fence sitting friends, you can just answer then as you see fit.... they are listed through out!

The problem with your questions posted here previously is that if they are adressed out of sequence they could lead the overall discussion off track. I stated I would do a "round up" and that is what I am doing now. As most all of your questions and comments revolve around your interview with the guy pertaining to the Fleet White paint story, I am not here to call anyone a liar, or tell you you or he is wrong. That is not my place. I think it is fair to say that as a result of this interview - you feel strongly that the "0" Paint was (and Is Fleet White).

My position is that the Historical Documents from Chevrolet, do not support the information from that interview you conducted. Further the IR Scans that I conducted, Tom, conducted and Lillard conducted all point to Ermine White as the color used. Finally the Mosport cars have the 0-1 code listed, the same color also specified - and the cars are charged to the GM Show car account.


The Chevrolet Engineering Build order 98168 for the track cars dated 3-30-67 approved by Mr. TB sloan to Chevrolet Engineering under the sub catagory "rebuild Program" specifies "Show quality paint" as a requirement. As you may recall- in 2005 Charlie Lillard had an Infra Red camera scan completed on #92 which also resulted in the pick of "Ermine White" as the color on the actual pace car.

BTW..... With all of the science done on this topic... I'm curious what the camera told you the breakdowns were with the existing C-1 sample cars vs the 0-1 samples from both 03C and 04A samples....I bet everyone would love to see how they compare.... Who knows....I might find myself starting to believe!!!

Please tell this was done at least!


No it was not and I will tell you why: C-1 and what it means-is not in debate or in question. I already mixed the exact 1967 paint formulation for Ermine White to confirm that that Ermine White was the actual color on the "0-1" coded IPC Commitment cars. The "color" of the "0" coded cars was the mystery debated here due to the stories we have been told in the books we have all read over the last 16 years. The Color of the C-1 cars has not been and is not in question.

There is some info posted right here that you could review. I did reflective research in the one technical post here discussing "spectural and Diffuse reflection". This effect is on display here in this thread for all to see in the photo of Tom's C-1 Pillar and the reflection coming off the surface caused by the flash of the camera. Same effect on the research subject 04-C build commitment car lid (no flash) and the 03-C commitment car lid (flash used), then where Mr. Bevers wipes with the thinner on the same 0-3-C lid (no flash) The same effect can be found in the following two photos that I am going to post here for you. These are 100% unaltered photos of the same paint lids and Paint samples against the same IPC trunk lid used for research. One without the flash, and one with the flash. The reflection coming off the surface tricks our eyes into believing the surface is brighter when it is not.

The guy you interviewed believed the cars were brighter, and opined to you that Fleet White was used. The were brighter for several reasons, none of which was related to the selection of a special color. These cars simply reflected light far better than a production paint job. Remember reflectivity and brightness to the eye is a result of three events, the first being the color, the second being the smoothness of the surface, the third being the amount of light present that is reflected back to your eyes.


Phil@camaropacecars.com
 
Posts: 4785 | Location: Chillicothe Ohio | Registered: 05 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Victory Lane
Picture of festival
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04-C Commitment build Lacquer Lid (No flash)


Phil@camaropacecars.com


 
Posts: 4785 | Location: Chillicothe Ohio | Registered: 05 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Victory Lane
Picture of festival
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Close up same lid (Flash used)


Phil@camaropacecars.com


 
Posts: 4785 | Location: Chillicothe Ohio | Registered: 05 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Victory Lane
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It would be great to see what all 21 of these reports state as the color, but then how do you interpret it? Try and average out how many say "ermine" opposed to only stating 1001AA special paint? No, that doesn't work.

I did question the "ermine" white on 238642, and the answer I recieved was the top part of these sheets are/were typed in for each report, and the ermine may have just been typed in by mistake, or just typed in for the sake of putting something there. Not exactly what you want to hear.

Notice the format on the top part of the report is different on 238642 which was issued in 2008, compared to the report on 237512, which was issued in 2005. The bottom section that lists the options appears to be some type of database downloaded information, and is the very same point size and style print, while the upper portions of the 2 reports do differ.

So now do we believe these reports, or discard the best GM historical documents we have that include the festival cars?
 
Posts: 2961 | Location: Illinois | Registered: 26 August 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Victory Lane
Picture of festival
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The paint samples mixed from the Infra Red camera scans on top of the same 04-C lid (no flash used). Here are color mixes established by the Camera are on display from one enamel door and two Lacquer lids (all IPC commitment build) against one of the IPC commitment build Lacquer lids.


Phil@camaropacecars.com


 
Posts: 4785 | Location: Chillicothe Ohio | Registered: 05 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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