Good work, Phil!
It seems like there may be one other thing to try. I know, it might be beating a dead horse. Perhaps an original C-1 sample ought to be scanned. This would test to see if time has changed the color by any degree. I know that this has been a concern. What do you think? Worth it, or not?
Andy V

Wow Phil, you really went all out! There are a couple things that still make me wonder. First, why would the 04A cars still have the O-1 paint code if it was only to show the polished finish? It is my understanding that the 0 paint code has always been used for non-"stock" colors. Also, I am having a hard time not putting a large amount of credence in Tony's interviews of the factory men and their statement of the truck white paint color. It seems logical that if they wanted continuity, that they would use just one color on both the trucks and cars.

Phil,

Are there any more parts to the research to be posted?

Phil,

We all thank you for your countless hours of work and research!

I have got to get better keeping up as this was an awesome post and read & I missed it until tonight!

I (of course)am delighted at this conclusion since I painted the 05A Ermine white with Lacquer a couple years ago and wasn't going to change since it was painted and in the reassembly stages. I remember you telling me not to worry as it will be hard to differentiate from the others even side by side.

Interestingly, I worked with Mike Rossi getting the old paint codes and had Richard send him a sample before actually painting the car. Mike still had his car at the time and thought the white was a match. After Richard painted the car, he complained profusely that it did not look correct until he/his guys spent hours and hours rubbing it out. I thought he might have been setting up to ask for more money, but he never did...just kept saying it was a bitch getting it to that bright white shine that it should have.

Again, thank you for all your work!

Jeff

Phil,
Where did the idea for enamel come from? Why would GM do this, paint cars they want to have a show car finish with a crude truck finish? I think it is because they wanted the cars to match the trucks, not to resemble that abortion Ford presented in 64 with the truck bright white, some of the pacers bright white, and some of the pacers the creamy white, all on the same track and in the same parades at the same time. Ermine white was not a truck color finish that was available in 67, so where did they come up with the idea to even try this?

It just makes no sense to come up with a new color of enamel that has never been used in automobile production to paint the pacers with. Ermine enamel was not available, but the truck fleet white 8080 was.

And that would explain the special buffing and polishing. My guess is Norwood still had the enamel spraying equipment in place, and they thought they would paint the pacers the brightest white that was in the Chevy color book. They sprayed the first cars with the 8080 enamel truck paint, and were not at all pleased with the results. Then they decided they had to do something, and tried special buffing (maybe even color sanded the enamel first) and polishing to produce the best results they could with the "pilot" pacers. Isn't there a few days of missing production? Could this be why, they were trying to smooth out the orange peeled pacers? Then the decision was made to switch to lacquer, after a few days delay. If the 8080 paint was to be used at this point, a formula would have had to be created for the 8080 lacquer, because it was never before used as a Chevy lacquer color.

Just for the heck of it, were the colors of undercoats all the same on the early enamel cars and the later lacquer cars? Were they even the same undercoat (primer)? I remember some of the white GM trucks used red undercoat back in those days.

You have presented so much good work and photos in this quest. What about the inside of that 0-1 trunk lid that you had dabbed or run some Ermine white paint on? I think it was on that survivor car you inspected and filled out the questionare on. Belong to the father, and now the son has the car. There was drastic difference in the whites. It still has to be posted somewhere. Surely they didn't buff and polish the inside of a trunk lid to make it look so much whiter than the ermine that was dabbed or run down the inner lid later.

You have put together a great quantity of evidence, I think it is entirely possible more than one conclusion can and will be reached from your findings. The only definitive finding will be to find a document stating what it was. Anything else will only be pure speculation. But you said that about 100 pages ago...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 1967 RS SS,

Phil - interesting points you have. As we know now not all 0-1 cars were used by GM at the race. We have the Commitment 0-1 cars as well as the dealer 0-1 cars. So did GM put a crazy amount of time into the dealer 0-1 cars sanding these cars to the same finish as the commitment cars? In doing so wouldnt that have made them blow the budget so to speak? Also what was the paint codes on the Zone cars - I would have assumed that the Zone Brass also got the special finish as per the 0-1 commitment cars. What also happened to the C-1 cars which were also used at the race? Would these last two groups of cars been given the show finish paint as per the 0-1 commitment cars??? All along in some of the Vintage pics of the 0-1 commitment cars , in my opinion it was clear to see that these cars were a much better paint finish than the average cars of the day.....

Comments and questions are welcomed. Keep them coming. I will do an additional post later today to address them and hopefully get them answered.

Phil,

Please don't think my questioning is a personal attack at you or your research. Somebody has to take the contrarian view, and since I probably come off as some know it all whacko, could any less be expected?

It just seems that everything falls right into place for this paint to have been the 521/8080 paint color. Everything but the science part of the equation. The science hasn't proved it was ermine or the 8080, and it really hasn't proved it not to be one of those colors either. IMO, logical thinking combined with available data from the flawed 64 Ford program and a very convincing interview of a man well respected and connected to the 67 program all seem to point away from the ermine white.

A few quick Tom thoughts ( A man truely on the fence with this topic, a tortured sole so to speak )

Pro: What if after all the Wagon really IS Capri Creme

Pro: My C-1 and O-1 original decklids match underneath visually to a tee.

Con: We have failed to secure an original paint factory big truck with confirmed enamel paint for analysis

Con: Nobody has succeeded in convincing me one way or the other that 40 year old white paint doesn't fade out to a yellow ( antique tint ) rendering original paint samples mute. A thought: you paint one Camaro in 1967 Ermine White. You paint another a brighter white from the available line... whose to say that both these shades over 40 years would not fade to practically match one another with regards to yellowing...?

Con: Enamel Ermine doesn't fit the chevy methods to me

Pro: My C-1 window pillar is very bright to me but the tulip jamb area has faded to the typical antique yellowed look...This being a C-1 would default to the Ermine camp. This area was absolutely packed with that gray sticky putty stuff and in my eyes was AIR TIGHT.. The only area on the car to be considered so ( air tight and pitch black darkness for 41 years )

Here is the freshly unsealed windshield pillar on my C-1

Tom,

Exactly what I would expect Lacquer to do.

Crossing the line for a moment, could the 0-1 actually have meant the special paint was enamel, warning any repairer there was something different about this paint? This could still leave it as ermine color, yet still be special paint.

OOPs, I gotta get back on my side of the fence.

I believe it was the 521 truck white, but certainly am keeping my mind open to all possibilities.

Phil!


If you are going to answer some questions, please address the ones I posted in the very beginning of this thread. All of them!

It seems that more that just this member has their doubts about the logic that you are asking us to believe was in place with the Chevrolet Brass on going this route.
You also seem to have backed off on all the science formula breakdowns....why is this? Is it possible you found out what Steve and I were telling you is true?

Tom..... You need to get off the fence my friend.... you might fall!

As much as I would love to support you on all of this .....you know I can't.... Your interpretation of what vintage facts that do exist is based on the national program that all the dealerships would have been able to offer to JOE PUBLIC. Meaning, the mentioning of the Ermine White.

The breakdown of these whites used back in the day would of reduced themselves to basically the same looking white....I really can't believe so few of you guys seem to acknowledge this fact...

I'm not out for a debate....we have already been down that road!
I have found that most questions in life are usually found to have the most simple answers...I believe this is one of them!



Here's a transcript of why I believe the paint that was used on the FESTIVAL CARS was Fleet
White.

This was taken from both Tape Interview and written notes.


Alan Conner, Assistant Organizational Manager May 1967 ( July 2005 )

Tony:
Alan do you have any memory of what the special paint was on the Festival Camaros?

Alan:
I'm not sure what the name was but I can tell you it was the brightest white we had available from the factory...... I think it might have been Cadillac White or something like that.

Tony:
It was reported that it was the standard Camaro White with a clear coat. It was called Ermine White.

Alan:
We didn't use a clear coat process back in 1967..pause.... who told you this?

Tony:
It was reported in a Chevrolet Pace Car book...so you are saying that the white that was used was just another white...the brightest white that Chevrolet had from the Factory?

Alan:
That's right!


Fallow up call August 2005...Alan Conner


Tony:
Alan, Do you remember when you told me that the paint that was used on the Festival Camaros was just another white from the Chevrolet Catalog...you said it might have been from the Cadillac line.


Alan:

What did you find out...Did I remember that right?


Tony:
We went through all the 1967 Paint Chip charts we could get our hands on.. Cadillac White was not really any brighter than Ermine white... We found that the brightest white was from the truck line of paints....

Alan:
That's it! I almost forgot about the truck fleet we had at the speedway.. The Truck White was the brightest white we had available.

Tony:
You are certain of this?

Alan:
Pretty certain! The attention to detail that we put into this program was next to none at that time. This was Chevrolet's single most important event in 1967. In some ways,the most import in years.
You would of had to have worked for Chevrolet to understand the effort that went into this program.
Continuity was everything! The local program meant everything for all of us that got stuck working it.... 12 to 14 hour days were the norm.
We had to have it perfect,especially when the brass was coming into town.
Working for Chevrolet back then was like being in the military.... we over did everything we got involved with.
If you attended one of our parties, there was a guy there to pour your coffee and another to drop the sugar in it and still yet another for the cream and one last guy at the end of the table to stir it for you.

Tony:
You mentioned continuity, Do you feel the cars were painted to match the trucks simply because the trucks had the brightest white paint?

Alan:
Yes! The trucks were to match the Camaros as the Camaros matched the Impalas.
You see, Jack (Bell) knew how to present a package to someone.... So, when he pitched Chevrolet's offer to Hulman he already knew what Hulman wanted and more importantly what the Speedway had used in the past!

Tony:
For continuity sake, you are saying all the vehicles would of been painted the same white? Was this Jack's idea?
Alan:

Yes....

I'm not sure if it was Jack's idea..
Probably not,..... but maybe.

It was just the way we had to do things back then.



This is the basis to why I believe it was the Fleet White...Of course, this doesn't prove anything when it comes to hard proof.. facts that we all would love to have...
However, there was so much clarity coming from this man on this topic that I remember he didn't allow me to finish my sentence when I first said we had found the brightest white to be from the truck line!

I don't really care what is believed or not believed from the interviews that I did, either on this topic or some others that we will pop up IN ONE LAST RACE...however...you should take note that they were there,living it!

OUT!

quote:

Pro: My C-1 and O-1 original decklids match underneath visually to a tee.


Pro: My C-1 window pillar is very bright to me but the tulip jamb area has faded to the typical antique yellowed look...This being a C-1 would default to the Ermine camp. This area was absolutely packed with that gray sticky putty stuff and in my eyes was AIR TIGHT.. The only area on the car to be considered so ( air tight and pitch black darkness for 41 years )

Tom,

Underneith the windshield and A-pillar chrome and deck lid should weigh a lot as to the colors being the same in unbuffed condition....

Clearly this has become a debate. I have one other thing to offer for what its worth. Here are two pictures of car 78's original sheet metal