On the 03-C enamel paint subject, has any thought been given to the idea these cars were not painted on the assembly line? There were only a few of them. Accepting they were enamel, it would not have been a big deal to shoot them separately. Doing enamel on a lacquer paint line creates it's own issues.

Enamel has very different drying characteristics than lacquer. The paint takes much longer to cure than lacquer unless a drying precess is used. If a drying oven were were available on the lacquer paint line, the drying process would be very different for enamel. The spray gun settings and air caps used for enamel would also need to be changed. To change the line over to paint enamel for just a few cars would be very disruptive.

If that change were made, it would make sense to shoot all these "special" cars in continuous sequence so changes were only done once. I don't think the body sequence numbers of the 03-C cars (and subsequent vehicles) support these cars being painted as a group.

Painting the few 03-C cars as enamel off-line would give the workers a chance to pull a body and associated panels to paint the enamel, allow it to air dry and then put it back in assembly sequence. The time to perform these tasks would account for gaps in the body sequence numbers. The enamel could be shot in a touch-up booth normally used for repair of production paint problems found after the paint line. It just does not seem likely that GM would run enamel on a lacquer paint line.

Keep in mind the Norwood plant was producing cars at an average rate of better than one per minute. The idea of disrupting the paint line to produce a few IPCs during the normal 03-C production week would be costly. From a cost standpoint it would make more sense to treat these few cars separately to understand how to deal with a larger volume in subsequent production weeks. Using a few hand picked employees to process these cars could identify potential shortcomings to be dealt with in production of the remaining units.

Taking some of this logic to the 04-A cars, they could have been shot ermine white lacquer with the rest of the cars going through paint and then pulled off-line for "special" treatment. This again would account for not seeing cars from this group in sequence. A small group of workers could perform the "special" treatment with minimal disruption to production.

If I am incorrect in the idea of these cars not being run in batches, which makes sense to do from a "special" paint standpoint, then this idea is invalid.

Keith C.

I didn't think of it while writing my last post, but painting the 03-C cars off-line in ermine white lacquer could have created the perception that these cars were painted in a color other than ermine white.

Keith C.

The comment in the previous post was meant to state 03-C cars as enamel, not lacquer.

I'm not positive, but wasn't Norwood a truck production plant yet in 66. Maybe/possibly the enamel painting and baking equipment could have still be on the grounds? I am not sure of this. Anyone know positively?

Have we had a good look at the Body Vs VIN's of all of the 0-1 Commitment cars? As Keth has mentioned above this may well support some of the paint arguments in relation to possible remoal from the line or batches in production. My car 04C has at least one sister car and Toms car also has several sister cars with consecutive vin #'s. Is there some answers to the mystery there???

The issue here would not be VINs, it would be body (cowl) tags. VINs are assigned by GM as they come down the line. The question is whether the cowl tags are consecutive to support being painted as a batch.

Thinking about it, even if they had consecutive body tag numbers they could have been pulled from the paint line together and processed one at a time. So even if there are multiple consecutive body tag numbers it does not mean they could not have been painted off-line. Gaps in sequence numbers would tend to favor them being painted individually off-line.

Keith C.

I've been following this thread with interest, but there is something I've wondered about. Has anyone ever tried to circulate a questionnaire with some of these questions to the retired members of the UAW who worked at the Norwood plant? Many labor unions have regular functions for their retired members, so if there is still a labor hall in the Norwood area, it may be a way to get first hand information on how special paint procedures were handled. Just a thought.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: PeterPar,

quote:

Has anyone ever tried to circulate a questionnaire with some of these questions to the retired members of the UAW who worked at the Norwood plant?

Peter,

I thought this was an excellent idea too. Last Fall I worked this idea with some intensity. I found the union hall that is currently serving those workers. The fellow that runs that hall has posted several flyers and asked different men that might have known something since they worked at the plant in the correct time frame to contact me. Did get a call from the hall leader last fall that he spoke with a guy that said he "worked on those cars" and took a flyer with several contact numbers on it. Never heard from the guy though. Thought it might help to place an 800 toll free number on a new set of flyers, but never got that 800 number in place. There are monthly meetings at the hall, and I really wanted to attend the Christmas party , and work the crowd. Never got that done, about that time I was pretty deep into working the Canadian car angle on this, and never got back to the union hall angle.

While working this angle, I checked into census reports and found the flight from the Cincy area in the years 1970-2000 is just unbelieveable. Since all these 1967 workers would be retired or dead, also tried posting flyers in areas and retirement homes in Florida, in hope that possibly a retired Norwood worker might see one.

Need to also mention that most of the leg work was done by an uncle and cousin that are both well connected, and lived in the Cincy area in the 70's/early 80's. We did a little trading and worked on each others projects for awhile.

I just can't believe that if a guy was to take three or four weeks and really work the Norwood/Cincy area hard, you couldn't come up with a dozen workers from the plant in 1967, but I just don't have that kind of time to dedicate to this, nor probably does anyone. It's a sad situation, because we all know some of these workers have to still be alive, and remember something.

I believe others have also tried this angle. What about running some advertisments in the local newspapers? For sure the 1800 number would be a great idea to improve responses.

quote:

I am afraid that we are not in the same corner on this one. Sadily If you or any one else is following the Fleet trail then to do so you have to be paying "lip service" to the research presented - yet still persuing an alternative view.

Phil,

I hope we are not persuing an alternate view, because the only view I am trying to represent is that this time it gets done right. Just the truth, or least as much as the truth as can be determined 41 years later. There's been just too many myths in too many books that were wrong. This time it has to be indisputably right. Not just for you or me, but for the guy who in the future looks here for reference, and can see final decisions were not reached in haste.

I just don't feel if all we are going to rely on is the scientific evidence of 41 year old paint samples, without sampling the other color it would have made more sense for it to be, and many thought it to be, that an indisputable conclusion can be reached at this time. If the samples were there, for you to test, I have no doubt you would have tested them, they just have not been able to be produced. I failed on being able to come up with suitable samples, every door I had left in the stack was from a truck built after 1979, when the 521 paint was somewhat stabilzed and the color didn't change as quick and drasticaly.

We need to find more answers to the "why" type questions before it's possible to sign off on this being the ermine color all along, without testing the 521, but that is just my opinion.

Heard this the other day, "Current research and extensive testing in a three year study has produced results indicating quite possibly that the 0-1 paint was actually Ermine white all along" , I couldn't agree more.

Landed on the moon? The hell you say, next they will be saying we have robots on Mars.

Kieth. We don't have enough 03C's to be sure but they are easily close enough to have been built in direct sequence body number batches
I've come to disregard the VIN's as they mean little to me in the big picture. The meat & potatoes with IPC's is the body numbers.

My 04A has a 1 digit lower sister and a 1 digit higher sister.. for sure a batch. I think of 10

quote:

Now it looks like you are attempting to come back and challange the validity of a GM of Canada document you posted here with respect to its ligitimacy.

I left this response seperate for a reason. Didn't have to look too hard, because the documents in question were in a red file. The results were not what I expected, but certainly made me start the day with a smile. I didn't remember why this car was in question, nor realize we had solved mystery already.

This is another 2 page GM of Canada VVS report. When it was presented to me, it listed seven exceptions as to why this car most likely wasn't a Canadian festival car, even though it was built in the correct time frame, and the dealer is listed as being "GM of Canada Show Car Account, Oshawa ON." It was thought to have been mistakenly listed as a festival car.

With what we have learned the last few months about the Canadian Festival cars, there is no doubt this is a legitimate festival car. With the facts we had to deal with just a short six months ago, this car was in serious question. Now, all the exceptions have been able to be answered and explained. I choose not to post a photo of the document on the internet, only for the reason that if the owner tried to sell this car, possibly someone might twist this information and try to say the car is still in question. If you would like a copy of the report, PM me your fax number, and I will send you one. I will also try and remember to bring it to Carlilse.

What we thought was right six months ago has now been proven to be wrong. This is what I really don't want to see happen with the 0-1 paint final decision.

quote:

Phil,

I hope we are not persuing an alternate view, because the only view I am trying to represent is that this time it gets done right. Just the truth, or least as much as the truth as can be determined 41 years later. There's been just too many myths in too many books that were wrong. This time it has to be indisputably right. Not just for you or me, but for the guy who in the future looks here for reference, and can see final decisions were not reached in haste.

I just don't feel if all we are going to rely on is the scientific evidence of 41 year old paint samples, without sampling the other color it would have made more sense for it to be, and many thought it to be, that an indisputable conclusion can be reached at this time. If the samples were there, for you to test, I have no doubt you would have tested them, they just have not been able to be produced. I failed on being able to come up with suitable samples, every door I had left in the stack was from a truck built after 1979, when the 521 paint was somewhat stabilzed and the color didn't change as quick and drasticaly.

We need to find more answers to the "why" type questions before it's possible to sign off on this being the ermine color all along, without testing the 521, but that is just my opinion.

Heard this the other day, "Current research and extensive testing in a three year study has produced results indicating quite possibly that the 0-1 paint was actually Ermine white all along" , I couldn't agree more.

Landed on the moon? The hell you say, next they will be saying we have robots on Mars.

Steve,

Again nothing personal here so please do not take it that way.

One of the overarching objectives of the entire research project here was to determine the status of 521 as the paint as Yes, No or Possible?

In conclusion the color used is not 521 and was not ever 521. Outcome NO

The 521 assertion started right here on this board and I held the door open for Fleet far longer then I should have.

Proving or disproving a differing color took me all the way to the 1967 commercial colors which added about 10 months to the research outcome. Without the Fleet White assertion the research would have been over in early 2007.

Let me be clear on the basis. Each and every Author who has specified an "0" color that can be some way associated with the IPC's over the years, clearly stated Ermine White. Notably this includes Chevrolet in May of 1967, and the GM of Canada Paperwork from June 1967.

The Problem that arrived around 1992 - was the new assertion that there was a "clear coat" applied over the Ermine White.

The second problem cropped up right here on this board when "Fleet white" was asserted as the color by an eye witness account.

I had a car to paint. I was not going to paint it the wrong color and the original Paint that was covered by a repaint and by weather stripping - did look slightly brighter than the old Ermine chips that I had at the time, so the research was on!

In the end all I did was confirm that Ermine White was the color - thus achieving the research objective.

As an added bonus the vast majority of this thread and the time I have spent at the computer as of late - is to offer scientific evidence and theory to explain why some of the photos look different and some look brighter while some look darker and to piece the puzzle together as to the possibilities of what the "0" code actually stood for.

The IR Scan technology is the DNA of Paint matching. You can cry fowl on that - make assertions that the camera lies, the paint is mis-mixed ect, the paint sampled is discolored ect..., That is Ok by me.

Tell you what!

You can support more research into 521 Fleet if you want. The cost of Gas is what it is, the cost of motels are what they are, the value of your time is what it is- and there is the other cost of mixing paint, tracking people down, phone calls, time away from work, ect... .

Also to do this you will need to track down a control group of 41 year old trucks with some reliable areas of original paint left. Following me? Kind of like what Tony did with his truck and get a sample. OK!

The technology?? OK- you find your trucks..., You have made it clear previously in the 0-1 paint thread that the PPG prophet camera is a "False Prophet".

So exactly how you (or anyone else) would be able to perform the study to determine what color the paint was when you question the technology used to make the determination?

How a study would be accomplished to an extent that would answer your remaining questions without the use of IR technology for color determination,- I have not a clue.

Given that to find such reliable samples to study you will need to look in areas where paint deterioration is minimized - such as the top of a cowl, under a door weather strip, or the underside of a body panel that is covered during the time of original vehicle production.

So here is your research slope. It is steep indeed.

In fact huge - when you believe (as you have stated) that the very paint you are going to study actually "changes color" and the camera has results that end up not valid, then you are left in a classic "catch 22" where the issue is up in the air for ever.

There is a mountain of evidence in support of Ermine as the color. If you want to hold the door open for Fleet that is fine - but in the meantime I have a car to paint and so do others here on this board.

Having owned our car 17 years now obviously I have been in no "rush to judgement" on the color.

It is what it is. And for me it is OVER.

And BTW, ANYONE who wants to research Fleet as the "O" color has my blessing.

And PLEASE Start a thread here so we can all follow it. I cannot wait.

Ok... I have to admit that this is compelling. A few things strike me and I'll list them here now:

The Canada paperwork is easily the most compelling. I'm not sure how or why we missed this. The only kink in the armor is that they are inconsistant with the paint explaination from car sheet to car sheet.. But thats splitting hairs...

My C-1 is yellowed everywhere but the windshield pillars and follows along the same lines as my O-1.. Either all whites regardless of original shade fade to the exact same yellow after 41 years ( I admit unlikely) or these two cars were painted the same color

I think there are a good handful of things we can still do to wrap this up as Ermine..

#1 follow through with the truck color comparisons
#2 Get another copy of as many sheets on the Canada cars as we can for comparo..David Parr where are you on this...?
#3 Somehow find the time to discover the real and indusputable facts surrounding trim tag meanings.. O's and dashed, COPO codes and comparisons with other non IPC special paints and the dashes that exist on all legit 67 Yenko cars... There is some sort of correlation there that needs to be fettered out... This required an entirely different post.

We also need to clean this one out and flag it so when the magazine article comes out it can be found and read without too much filler stuff..

I think this is/has gone civily as this is a big pill to swallow after years of being set in our ways...

WOW

quote:

There is a mountain of evidence in support of Ermine as the color. If you want to hold the door open for Fleet that is fine - but in the meantime I have a car to paint and so do others here on this board.

As much as I'm considering on asking for some ass room up on the fence it not for all aspects to this theory....a mountain of evidence it is not....
The only true evidence is the GM of Canada Document!
The May 1967 Article, depending on the interpretation, may or may not be saying the actual Pace Car was Ermine. This was meant for all eyes...It wasn't an internal document!
It is only the fact that the GM of Canada print out says Ermine on the same line that has got my attention.

I would love to see if the Clary brothers car had any decent enough area left just to see if the paint is Lacquer or Enamel...... This is obvious that we don't want to ask Charily to do such a test on his ride!

The fact that the 03C BATCH of Festival cars is a group, is in my mind, falls exactly into the way Keith described the process could of been.

IT IS ALSO FACT THAT THE NORWOOD PLANT DID produce trucks in 1966.....

I also doubt that Chevrolet would use the Special Paint code for simple ID purposes when we know how all the other cars were IDed when they left the factories... What type of special handling were they going to do to lacquer with the burn through concerns?

Is there a chance that not only two types of paints were used as well as possibly two different colors?? There is a real possible chance that something like this could of happened! Stranger things have happened!

Phil,

I'm glad you are good with your findings because you put a ton of work into this my friend and I know that saddle has to be old by now....
It's important to conclude an effort just for closure purposes even if a rather large amount of supporting evidence can be viewed two different ways by the readers or the opposing side of view.