Camaro Pace Car Merchandise is now available !!

Support Camaro Pace Cars .com

Camaro Pace Cars .Com    My Forum Home Page    All Years Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  1967 Pace Car  Hop To Forums  1967 Tech. & Restoration    0-1 Paint Research conclusion
Page 1 ... 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 ... 17
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
0-1 Paint Research conclusion
 Login/Join
 
2009 Supporter
Victory Lane
posted Hide Post
quote:
We need to talk about it to get it where it needs to be.


We only need to eliminate the 521 from being any possibility. And if you were to say,"I'm done with it", I could understand. Some things just always remain mysterys forever.
 
Posts: 2961 | Location: Illinois | Registered: 26 August 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Supporter
Victory Lane
Picture of Tom McGinnity
posted Hide Post
I never saw those paint documents before!


tom @ camaropacecars.com ( remove the space between m,@,c)
 
Posts: 13401 | Location: Arlington Mass | Registered: 01 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
2009 Supporter
Victory Lane
posted Hide Post
Phil's very close to having this nailed. Just so many "why" type questions that may never be answered.
 
Posts: 2961 | Location: Illinois | Registered: 26 August 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Victory Lane
posted Hide Post
quote:
With the tint result as printed that tells me the result was good, unless the reader (someone here) has a built in bias for another color at which point I can tell the opposing view that the sky is blue and I will be told wrong-o.


What exactly are you trying to say?
 
Posts: 9137 | Location: Ventura, Ca. | Registered: 05 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Victory Lane
posted Hide Post
quote:
Looks like the Dupont camera accuratly found the White, yellow, Blue, and the Black. The Carbon Black in Dupont is Wk Black in PPG.


As I mentioned a number of times before, the guy who did the scan felt that the blue chip probably had contaminated the scan.
I just gave it a whirl since no one else had come up with a white truck from 1967....
 
Posts: 9137 | Location: Ventura, Ca. | Registered: 05 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Victory Lane
Picture of festival
posted Hide Post
Tony,

I did not contaminate it very much because the tint ratio for a fleet white mix is only slightly reduced across the range for all tints for your shoot.

A blue tint of only 0.8 is pretty consistant with the mix ratios present for a Fleet mix in a "damaged" sample. The PPG Mix for Fleet requires twice the blue at 1.6.

Not buying the snake oil today blahblah


Phil@camaropacecars.com
 
Posts: 4788 | Location: Chillicothe Ohio | Registered: 05 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
2009 Supporter
Victory Lane
posted Hide Post
quote:
As I mentioned a number of times before, the guy who did the scan felt that the blue chip probably had contaminated the scan.
I just gave it a whirl since no one else had come up with a white truck from 1967....


Tony,

In your opinion in regards to the area tested on your truck, would you say the color under the tested area has blue paint under it? If the answer is yes, this is an extremely flawed sample area not suitable for comparison, unless you are researching how the 521 white held up over blue dash paint. It's just that easy.

I have always stated that different parts of the truck changed colors at different rates and intensity. I would have expected that part of the cowl not to have changed color as much as say, the drivers fender. Ideally the fender is what we need, and to take off the emblem, show the color change, and test both areas.

Why the enamel on the first 03C cars? Logic would have said because they used the 521 fleet white which WAS NOT AVAILABLE in lacquer in the 67 passenger car paint line. To have sprayed the ivory truck enamel, instead of the same color ermine white in the Magic Mirror Lacquer GM used, which was by far the smoothest and as close to show car paint finish of all the US auto makers paint finishes, well, it just is a mystery, just makes no sense. They have the ermine/ivory available in the lacquer, at a plant all set up for the lacquer process (and in production with it), yet they are going to use the rougher and courser enamel which is not nearly as easy to work with after it has been force dried. Just doesn't seem to make sense, unless they used the 521 fleet white on the 03C cars.
 
Posts: 2961 | Location: Illinois | Registered: 26 August 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
2009 Supporter
Victory Lane
posted Hide Post
Phil,

Any idea why the Ditzler color book lists a different paint numbers for the truck ivory paint, and the passenger car ermine? Kind of an odd situation where they would have 2 different numbers for the same color in the same year by the same auto manufacture?
 
Posts: 2961 | Location: Illinois | Registered: 26 August 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Victory Lane
Picture of festival
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 1967 RS SS:
Phil,

Any idea why the Ditzler color book lists a different paint numbers for the truck ivory paint, and the passenger car ermine? Kind of an odd situation where they would have 2 different numbers for the same color in the same year by the same auto manufacture?



Tony,

Lets examine Fleet White:

First Chevrolet had an RPO code 521
PPG/Ditzler lists #8080
RM/ Rinshed Mason lists #A-1347
Dupont Lists # 817-L

THere were also Grade A, B, and C, Paints in the aftermarket. For example:

ACME Lists:
#1492 in Lacquer for Fleet White
in an A grade and B grade
#60 1492 in Acrylic (60 pro krill)
#22 Fleet X in Enamel
in an A grade and a B grade.

All have Blue, and the only variance from Grade to grade is in the amount of White added. The lesser (standard) grades get less white as a % of the mix.

Manufacturers have to number the product differently so people know what they are buying.


Phil@camaropacecars.com
 
Posts: 4788 | Location: Chillicothe Ohio | Registered: 05 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Victory Lane
Picture of festival
posted Hide Post
quote:
Why the enamel on the first 03C cars? Logic would have said because they used the 521 fleet white which WAS NOT AVAILABLE in lacquer in the 67 passenger car paint line. To have sprayed the ivory truck enamel, instead of the same color ermine white in the Magic Mirror Lacquer GM used, which was by far the smoothest and as close to show car paint finish of all the US auto makers paint finishes, well, it just is a mystery, just makes no sense. They have the ermine/ivory available in the lacquer, at a plant all set up for the lacquer process (and in production with it), yet they are going to use the rougher and courser enamel which is not nearly as easy to work with after it has been force dried. Just doesn't seem to make sense, unless they used the 521 fleet white on the 03C cars.



I would have to disagree on your assertion of the the overall quailty of the production paints used on the '67 line and here is why:

The Enamel finish was the aftermarket show car finish of the day prior to BC/CC technology.

I think you will agree that Lacquer is toast in about 5-7 years in use - and 10-12 in storage conditions.

It fails when exposed to air (even without UV) by simply drying out and cracking into the typical little micro spider web type cracks you see on every survivor car with original lacquer paint.

The photos of the enamel and Lacquer lids evaluated in the reasearch are instructive on which paint holds up better please have another look.

Lacquer was also frowned on in the day due to high burn through rates during buffing.

Remember how risky it was to use rubbing coumpound on your old lacquer jobs- let alone a buffer??

Your assertion that 521 was not available in the chevrolet Passenger car line is correct, however as I already posted up here previously it was available in the paint aftermarket in both Lacquer and Enamel-as well.

Simularly Ermine White was also available in both Lacquer and enamel in the aftermarket.

So if "0" means special and Magic Mirror Lacquer is what you are typically shooting on the line then a paint type substitution would trigger the "0". With me so far??

Likewise if new paint preperation and finishing are required or perhaps GM elected later in 04- to switch from a Standard "C" Ermine White in a production grade of paint to a premium aftermarket "A grade" (then called a "second Mix") again in the color of in Ermine White a new premium grade of paint is now created - that is again different from the normal production grade - is seperate, more expensive and again that would also very likely trigger the "0" on the Trim Tag just now in Lacquer.

To close the Enamel loop- do you want me to drag the door from #708 to the GM nationals - so you can rub on it with lacquer thinner so you will then believe?? Cheers

Heck I will buy you a beer - then you can buy me one when you see the evidence in person. haha


Phil@camaropacecars.com
 
Posts: 4788 | Location: Chillicothe Ohio | Registered: 05 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Victory Lane
Picture of festival
posted Hide Post
To those of you still following this Yawner.

Please pay special attention to the Post above.
Read it carefully.

Then scroll back to the photo that Steve posted of the Canadian Documentation listed for one of the the 06 Canadian Mosport festival Pace cars.

"Special order Ermine White" is listed.

As we continue to labor through the puzzle process as a group, first you get the color, next the "Why" of the use of the "0" code is digested- all to the point whare we can all go deeper and understand what happened.

I think we are "there" and like a puzzle the pieces are all falling into place-nicely.

Like I said we have to talk about it Cheers


Phil@camaropacecars.com
 
Posts: 4788 | Location: Chillicothe Ohio | Registered: 05 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
2009 Supporter
Victory Lane
posted Hide Post
quote:
The Enamel finish was the aftermarket show car finish of the day prior to BC/CC technology


The enamel finish that was the show car finish of the day was the DelStar"s and Centauri's. These were fabulous looking when wet sanded and buffed. The black centauri looked like wet plastic when it was finished. The same could be said for the whites. But the factory enamel was not this product. The factory paints differed greatly from the after market paints that were produced for air dry, not the force dry paints used on the assembly line.

I just don't believe, but this is only my opinion, that there was enough enamel put on at the factory to wetsand with 600, and buff out the finish to the glass smooth show car finish the Delstar or Centauri would produce. And I would say, going by the condition the enamel trunk lid you posted, there is no way at the factory they shot these cars with aftermarket enamel. Reason being those paints looked fabulous when completed, but after a few years they would split and fog very badly. The durability that was promised really never happened with the aftermarket enamel, even with the hardners.(the splitting actually was worse on hardened paint, than if you left the hardner out.)

You don't have to bring the door or truck lid for me, I knew when I saw the inside of that trunk lid, we were looking at something entirely different, just by the condition. I even fired off a PM to Tom asking where that(trunk lid) had been hiding.

I think you realize that you and I are in the same corner of the ring on this one, and Tony is standing here with us. The corner is in the ring of the truth, and that is what all of us want. Undisputeable proof that will be accepted by all here, and all that should read about this later. Your close, very close, but still we need to find a sample of the 521 so it can be eliminated for good. Cheers
 
Posts: 2961 | Location: Illinois | Registered: 26 August 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Victory Lane
Picture of festival
posted Hide Post
Steve,

Be sure to read post 11 on this page. We are there.


Phil@camaropacecars.com
 
Posts: 4788 | Location: Chillicothe Ohio | Registered: 05 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
2009 Supporter
Victory Lane
posted Hide Post
quote:
To those of you still following this Yawner.

Please pay special attention to the Post above.
Read it carefully.

Then scroll back to the photo that Steve posted of the Canadian Documentation listed for one of the the 06 Canadian Mosport festival Pace cars.

"Special order Ermine White" is listed.


I am at work this Sunday morning, went to church and then reported in here. Anyway, I have a document somewhere at home that kind of discredits the GM of Canada VVS reports. If I can find it, I will get a photo and post it later.

Also receieved a photo yesterday of a commonly seen pacecar picture, but this one differs greatly in person from what you see on the screen. It is out being enlarged at this time. Need to speak to the sender to find out just how reliable the source was, was it ripped from the net, or produced from a negative?
 
Posts: 2961 | Location: Illinois | Registered: 26 August 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Victory Lane
Picture of festival
posted Hide Post
quote:
I think you realize that you and I are in the same corner of the ring on this one, and Tony is standing here with us. The corner is in the ring of the truth, and that is what all of us want. Undisputeable proof that will be accepted by all here, and all that should read about this later. Your close, very close, but still we need to find a sample of the 521 so it can be eliminated for good. Cheers


Steve,

I am afraid that we are not in the same corner on this one. Sadily If you or any one else is following the Fleet trail then to do so you have to be paying "lip service" to the research presented - yet still persuing an alternative view.

I am not doing that. I have a position and am standing firm with the evidence.

This is not personal so do not take it that way - but here is how is looks to me:

In examination of the evidence presented - Fleet White as the "0" paint at this point would clearly constitute an alternative view, and that is ok as long as we are talking technical issues related to the research conclusions and not going back and challanging the overall basis of the research in the first place - which your last few posts seem to do.

That is old ground, We have covered it extensively in the original 0-1 paint thread. Now it looks like you are attempting to come back and challange the validity of a GM of Canada document you posted here with respect to its ligitimacy. confused

If that document is an official GM of Canada document then I have already stated a position with respect to that in this thread on page 9 post 2 as follows:

"IMO...Good Point. Looks like Official GM Documentation to me and can be confirmed through GM of Canada. If GM was sloppy in what they did or did not do - there are multiple examples of such sloppyness. One example is the absence or precence of the "fleet code" on some of the Trim tags while others do not have the code. I would trust the documentation from GM, to the point where a color is specified - in addition to and supplemental to the other information provided, and treat it the same way we treat the absence or presence of a "fleet Code" on the trim tag.

And, I suggested getting another copy of the GM of Canada document to verify the content.



An anology that applies here:

I know a wealthy Gentleman who to this very day believes that the USA never landed on the moon in 1969. He has an alternative view that it was staged on a movie set. I even took him to Cape while on vacation in Florida, several years ago and had him look at the machines that took us there. He left that day as convinced as ever that we never landed, and I gave up on that one.

This discussion reminds me of his determination - as his mind was made up to believe what he wanted - to yet to humor me - by going out to the space center with me so he would not show me any disrespect. Roll Eyes


Phil@camaropacecars.com
 
Posts: 4788 | Location: Chillicothe Ohio | Registered: 05 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 ... 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 ... 17 
 

Camaro Pace Cars .Com    My Forum Home Page    All Years Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  1967 Pace Car  Hop To Forums  1967 Tech. & Restoration    0-1 Paint Research conclusion