I am starting this thread at Tyler's request. Here is a post he made in the "Festival Car Wanted" thread.

quote:

Originally posted by tnpace:
Phil,
I think it would be wise to start a new thread on who has the 1st Indy Pace Car. My position is real simple: The cars came down the line in numerical order by VIN#. Therefore, the lowest VIN# is previous to the next. I've talked to Jerry McNeesh and other so-called experts. That while I know your body# is the lowest, Chevrolet did not assemble cars in body sequence. They never have and they never will. Therefore, the lowest VIN# that was stamped on the production line and came off of the production line would be the 1st Indy Pace Car. I'm sure you have your opinion and I am not opposed to starting a new thread with input from other people on this site. I'm just one person with my opinion from the data I have collected. But I do not see how it could be disputed that the VIN# is by Chevrolet and the body# is by Fisher. Therefore, you have the 1st body that Fisher made, and I have the 1st car that was 100% complete with the VIN# off of the Chevrolet production line. I'm sure there will be more to follow this.
Regards, Tyler.

Comments on Tyler's position that he owns "the first pace car built", "assembeled", "finished", ect... are welcome here. The VIN is 191975.
so "lets get it on"

Here is Tyler's Trim Tag:

I'll throw my hat in without getting elaborate: I am putting my chips on the table that says as the years go by people will come to realize that VIN sequence, while generally numeric and a great ballpark, are not how cars are made. I am convinced that people ( dare I say experts ) concluded too early on and incorrectly ( understandable as it does seem obvious on the outside that VIN's would be sequential )that VIN is steady down the line..

Now the kink in the armour here is that you need to decide where you judge a cars existance.. I choose to judge it from its foundation in the plant as ordered.. Thats the trim tag and they were stamped sequentially in my eyes.. We all know and agree that they were tossed into different lines at the Chevy side and VIN'ed at that very moment.. this makes it IMPOSSIBLE to tell what car left the end of the plant into the beautiful Ohio sunshine first.. Therefore one must logically default to inception and the laying of the rocker panels..One might take it to an ever further extreme and say its when the order was recieved and the TT stamped

This is strickly an opinion. Someday we will know..

I might also note that the only constant numerals these cars have since birth is the body #. The VIN is a Federally mandated nuisance number for registration, tax collection, corporate watchdogging and theft retrieval.. If it meant anything to GM they would have had it on the trim tag from the get go.. It wasn't good enough for GM and it isn't good enough for me

but its nice and 12 4 67 is my wifes birthday

Anyone notice that original window stickers are pre-printed with the exception of the remaining portion of the VIN# (in this case would be 191975) which was always stamped with an ink stamper?

This would indicate that the window sticker, (including the car's pre determined option content) existed well prior to the assignment of the VIN#.

Time to settle in, this could get interesting.

Hey! where'd you get that BBQ grille

example of added VIN

quote:

Originally posted by festival:
Anyone notice that original window stickers are pre-printed with the exception of the remaining portion of the VIN# (in this case would be 191975) which was always stamped with an ink stamper?

This would indicate that the window sticker, (including the car's pre determined option content) existed well prior to the assignment of the VIN#.

Looks like even the car shipper was made in advance. I will bet the same person stamped both.

Well in terms of a new car that has never yet been assembled, the way I look at it is a collection of parts scattered around a factory is not yet a car. It's a car when it's assembled and you can hop in and drive it away. So IMO the one VIN'ed earlier was finished earlier and would be first, regardless of which one started being built first. The guy that crosses the finish line first is the one who gets the medal, doesn't matter when they left the starting gate.

I appreciate your position..
But
When the car is VIN'ed it is nowhere near finished.. Its a semi dressed shell from Fisher and set to follow one of many lines to that finish line

That in a nut shell is the problem.

But please also keep in mine that WE are the nuts that came from that shell

Rereading your post I have a comment. It has been the general consensus that the reason for the 6 or so seperate lines at the Chevy side is because it takes a heep load more man hours to assemble the highest optioned cars over the stripper 6 cylinder coupes.. Once we agree to that we can clearly see that there would be fast lines and very slow lines ( air conditioned SS RS convertibles with AM FM and gauges, power top etc). You could get a dozen strippers out of sequence to every big optioned car.. EXAMPLE: The stripper comes in from Fisher first and is assigned VIN #1 the high optioned car behind it is VIN #2... Vin #1 leaves the factory first because it was a piece of cake to finish. Car #2 gets passed by 5 other lower optioned cars before it even leaves the Convertible top install area... So is that car really car 6 now

Oh my brain is burning

Oh My this is going to be a zinger of a thread...Gimme a beer....

Here you go

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Bill B,

Nice.. and I agree with the vast majority of what you say. I think in the case of the Norwood plant though they installed the VIN after the body was painted and sent through the wall to Chevy. Thats why the VIN plate in the door jamb had body color under it and why the hidden stamped VIN's have the paint all broken because they smashed the VIN in right straight through the paint ( cowl top and cowl face ). That is why I have personally decided to recognise the body number because the Trim Tag was installed at a very early time during the sheetmetal body buildup..

Hey: I think we might be having a nice civil debate so far

I would also like to add that I'm not here to hurt anyones feeling and if I were a betting man I'd say the odds are good that someday an even earlier Festival car might pop up than Phils and Tylers... who knows So with that said..

Response with bias since I owned 1975 at one time Phil and I have had this debate in the past and I can see his point is valid from a pure manufacturing standpoint. It's simplicity that complicates the issue. I would also like to note that both Phil's and Tyler's car are the earliest body number and vin known to date respectively.

My .02 in a nutshell is that:
General Motors Corporation is the parent company. Chevrolet and Fisher Body are Divisions of the parent company. You will note that on the trim tag above it shows "General Motors Corporation" and below "Body By Fisher". Using my VIN plate as an example you will note that on the VIN plate it say "Chevrolet". It's my understanding from the decals stuck to the side of the pace cars they are called "Chevrolet Camaro" official pace cars not Fisher Body Camaro official pace cars, or General Motors official pace cars.

To add to what tom said the trim tag has no paint under it. so it was install before paint. I agree with you tom lower body # is first car.

For the "VIN# comes first" folks the issue seems to be centered around the belief in sequential final vehicle assembly build.

Review of the current registry for 03C shows no trace of a VIN spread sequence at all.

Cannot find a pattern that is consistant at all.

I agree Phil, 100%. I don't see how either car could be substantiated as the first completed IPC Camaro. It just so happens that one has the earliest VIN# and the other the earliest Body#.

I dont know if this helps or not?

quote:

Originally posted by IPC93:
Pre-build: (non-ordered vehicle)

When a car is first conceived, so to speak. All documentation, including VIN numbers, etc, are predetermined prior to the first bolt/part even being shipped to the factory to build that particular vehicle. A car, depending on how you look at it, could've been first to be "assigned" a build date. As all build dates are predetermined weeks, some times months, before materials are even ordered from various suppliers to produce the vehicle. Documentation, order sheet, materials, build date, scheduling, manpower, etc.. All are all taken into consideration.

If I understand Ron correctly, a car with a lower VIN may not even have started the build process because of the parts not being available, while one with a later VIN and the parts ready could be started down the line and wouldn't the later car be issued a lower body number because of this.

Pat makes an excellent point that CHEVY owned and built the car.. Fisher was technically a subcontractor.. That point requires more reflection.

I suppose without looking at all the angles we could have guys saying they have the first because thier wiper motor date is earliest or the rocket sheet metal stamp is the earliest etc ect

Not exactly Tom, Fisher Body also built the car. Chevrolet did the final assembly and yes "owned" the finished product.

Peter. I don't think that could be the case because if the car was held up at Fisher it would never leave their building to head over to Chevy until done.. and with no VIN attached yet there would be no harm-no foul... Its the tie ups on the Chevy side that would mix up the que'. However if Fisher had an issue the Body number would be still active and then when you line up the big picture that would affect the VIN to body number relationship when compared to other cars ( if you could line them all up which we cannot )

quote:

Originally posted by Tom McGinnity:
Peter. I don't think that could be the case because if the car was held up at Fisher it would never leave their building to head over to Chevy until done.. and with no VIN attached yet there would be no harm-no foul...

Tom, what I took from Ron's explaination was that the VIN was assign before the car was scheduled to be built. If the parts were not available for the lower VIN, the next VIN that had the parts available would be started down the line giving it a lower body number. I guess what I'm trying to say is if the VIN was assigned during the pre-production stages, when it was attached would have nothing to with the sequence it when down the line. The body number wouldn't have been issued until the car actually started into production, so wouldn't it be a more correct indicator of what was built first.

Was pointed to this thread and joined to make this one post.

After skimming the entire thread, I realize that as a group you all basically enjoy argument - and that's fine. However, while I don't mind a fact-based discussion on disagreement I'm personally not interested in arguing for argument sake, so if you want to disagree with me that's fine, but I won't be replying to it.

As to what car of a given type is "first", I have my opinion, but acknowledge there could be some difference of opinion. You all feel free to enjoy your discussion on that.

But as to whether or not cars came off the assembly line in VIN order or not, there can be no rational disagreement - they did, period. All the residual paper evidence is consistent with this. And those who were not only present at the time, but true manufacturing engineering experts at the time, and of the time, like John Hinckley, will tell you this. Read his assembly process article at the CRG site, and believe it. And if you tour a modern facility you'll see that they still do this.

Also, the VIN is/was more than a federal nuisance - it is/was the offical ID of the build, and is used by all car builders as such, GM or otherwise.

Will this post put your thread to bed? I doubt it - like I said, you all like to argue amongst yourselves and that's OK. Just don't argue about the VIN order off the line...

Best wishes, Rich

Hmm