OK guys,

We have the genuine "-"/COPO coded C-1 (Pace Car Replicas) with blue noses that everyone is familiar with... These are REAL Pace cars!

Lets talk about the Non "-"/None COPO coded, controversual, not proven to date, Dealership Replicas that are often referred to as the "Black Nosers". For this study I'm termed them "RPO Dealership Replicas" as thats how they were ordered by the various dealerships (that either didn't order the genuine replica "-" code/COPO cars or were too late to do so). The idea here was for the various dealers to put a lookalike pacer in their showroom and sell these cars to customers that wanted one. These are NOT Real Pace cars in GM's mind, but were likely in the minds of the people driving them out of the showroom...


Possible Zone Assignment Replicas or "RPO Dealer Replicas" - Before the race/possible participation at the festivities (C-1, C-4?, non "-" code/RPO (Regular Production Order) cars
I've been gathering information from various old and new sources (articles, people, etc.) and it appears their are quite a few opinions and story's about the RPO Dealer Replica ("Black Nose" or blue nose if painted stripe delete or repainted over black) cars that were built prior to the race (04A - 05C or perhaps 05D if Norwood built).

We have some of these cars here on the site (04A, ???) that are C-1, non "-" coded/RPO cars. These cars follow the general pacer format, RS/SS or RS???, "R" bright blue, 12667, 732-Z, C-1, 4P or 4N, but don't neccessarily come with disc brakes, ie can be drum/hubcap cars. In some cases previous owners have changed these cars to the blue strip (as they were probably black) and added rally wheels to mirror their "-" coded, disc brake cousins....

At this time I do not believe we have documents to show if they were sold at the dealerships with either a black (most likely) or blue stripe and if they came with stickers on the doors, etc. Hopefully we will be able to find some paperwork, pictures, or original owners that can document how these cars were dressed leaving the dealerships. In my opinion these cars were probable at participating in the Indy 500 festivities. If the owners of these cars would please join in and provide any information or corrections that would be great!

Breaking news!!!! Based on very recently uncovered GM Camaro and Indy 500 sales brochures, and the fact that 05A is last known/documented Indy "-"/COPO coded blue nosed genuine replicas, I feel that after 05A (and even as early as the announcement of the Indy 500 pacers going back to perhaps 04A) dealers were likely both ordering and accepting customer orders for non "-" "RPO Dealership Replicas" to put customers in a car looking very similar to the genuine pacers, but using the regular RPO system... It appears the Indy Zone office may have also needed to round up some of these RPO Dealership Replica cars to fill their car assignment lists for the festivities.

Here are a few cars for the list. (The first four cars are either members or recent visitors on here).

1. 04A C-1 396 "unknown nose", power drums/hubcaps, power steering, tinted windshield, power top, Turbo 400 console -now wearing discs/ralleys, blue nose stripe and door stickers
2. 04A C-4 Base model 327 (210hp) N202708 12467NOR102665 Standard Interior, B(regular Blue), 717-Z (blue standard buckets), power discs, power steering, tinted windshield, power top, Impala tilt steering wheel, powerglide console, deluxe seatbelts, cruise (Dealer installed), AC (Dealer installed), RS Rear valance added...
3. 04A C-4 RS 327(210hp) N204710 NOR104458 "black nose", manual drums/hubcaps, power steering, tinted windshield, power top, Impala steering wheel, powerglide console, bumper guards -now wearing discs/ralleys, blue nose stripe
4. 04D C-1 350 L155699 LOS1965 "unknown" 4-spd, console, deluxe seatbelts
5. 05A or 05B? C-1 350 N217159 NOR118898 "unknown nose" manual drums/mag hubcaps, manual steering, Impala wheel, 4-spd console/guages, manual top (NOTE: Cowl tag stamped with 04A, but body sequence number and VIN suggest 05A or 05B build, Typo on tag???)
6. 05B C-1 350 N218953 NOR119351 "unknown nose", manual?/drums?, power steering, Tilt/SS wheel, 4-spd console/guages, tinted windshield, manual top, deluxe seatbealts -now wearing discs/ralleys, blue nose stripe and door stickers
7. 05C C-4 350 N221xxx "black nose"
8. 05C C-1 396 N221183 "blue nose"?
9. 05C C-1 350 N221671 12467NOR121586 Standard Interior, B(regular Blue), 717-Z (blue standard buckets) "blue nose"?, power disc brakes, power steering, tinted windshield, 4-spd, console/guages, rear speaker, deluxe seatbelts, bumper guards

any more we can add here?


And here's another related category of cars....

Give-a-Way cars


1. 04/05? C-C Coupe, Base/SS? model, drum brakes, wire wheel hubcaps, broken nose stripe (color unknown), Indy door decals! (Herb Hallman Chevrolet, Reno, Nevada supplied for give-a-way at the Ponderosa Hotel/Casino in Reno, per Nevada State Journal Newpaper dated May 27, 1967)

2. 04/05? C-1 Conv., RS, SS or RS/SS? model, Marhoefer Packing Company, Muncie, Indiana, "Marhoefer 500 Racelebration Sweepostakes" -1st prize official 500 pace car. Shown as a generic SS Convertible in Terre Haute Tribune dated May 12, 1967. Entries accepted till midnight May 31st.

3. 04/05? C-1 Conv./Coupe?, RS or RS/SS? model, drum brakes, hupcaps, nose stripe unknown, Indy door decals! (Froderman's Chevy City near Indy furnished the car. Locals pictured with the car are Marsee Cox-Tribune worker, Jim Adkinson, Barney Smith, and Wayne Cox from Topanga, California. The car was used in the first-day "500" qualifications and the Memorial day classic per the Terre Haute Tribune/Newspaper dated May 15, 1967)

4. 04B/04C? C-1 Conv. base/RS? model, drum brakes, hubcaps, Blue? nose stripe, Indy door decals! (Kelly Sales, Co. Greenwood Indiana, Sears Give-a-way car won by K.W. McClard on May 29, 1967 and delivered on June 6th. N209420 12467NOR108681, regular blue "B" interior, 327 (210 hp) Powerglide with column shift)

5. Sprite Indianapolis "500" Sweepstakes car($500/month for a year plus the "Indy" pace car)

6. Speedway 500 Club, Inc. give-a-way "1967 Chevrolet "Camaro" 300 Mile Pace Car on May 27, 1967. $1 donation for ticket)


Possible Late "RPO Dealer Replicas"- Produced after the Race or too late to participate (C-1 or C-4, non "-"/RPO code)
NEXT, we have the RPO Dealer Replica cars produced too close to the race or after the race and thus could not have any involvement in the 500 festivities (same cowl tag breakdown as the earlier dealer replicas) which I'm saying are 05D to 06C or possible 06D/E build which are also black or blue nose cars. These cars were either just regular orders that happened to look like the pacers, or most likely some dealerships were still ordering these and dressing them to look like pacer replicas well into June (through the end of the PaceSetter sale) and perhaps to the end of the model year?

These cars can be disc or drum brake cars and are generally drum brake, hupcap cars.

Currently I have the following possible RPO Dealer Replica cars... (Cars 5 and 6 are either members or recent visitors)

1. 05D C-1 396 L158687 "unknown"
2. 06A C-1 350 N230003 "unknown"
3. 06B C-1 396 N232xxx NOR132262 Blue Nose??? power disc, power steering, walnut steering wheel, 4-spd console, manual top, deluxe seatbelts
4. 06B C-1 396 N235608 "unknown"
5. 06B C-1 Base Model 327(275hp) N235xxx NOR134826 Blue Nose??? All tinted windows, Factory AC, Powerglide/Console, style trim group, manual top -PaceSetter???
6. 06C C-4 350 N237440 NOR137159 "unknown" manual drums/hubcaps, Manual Steering, 4-spd console/guages, manual top
7. 06C C-1 396 N238090 NOR138291 "unknown" power drums/hubcaps, tinted windshield, power top, Turbo 400 Console, rear antenna, deluxe seatbelts
8. 06D/E C-1 ??? N246065 "black nose"

I'd like to start discussing these cars in hope that we can share anything that we know as facts and possibly look at following up on any leads. And hopefully others will see this string and comment...


"Zone" Brass Blue Toppers
I also have a possible 1 of 10 "Indy Zone" non "-" code/RPO, Black Nose Stripe, blue topper driven by the top Indy Zone office brass at the 500 festivities and daily duties. We have one picture on this site (Thanks Tony!) of one of these Black Nose/Blue topper cars pulling out of the garage at Indy. Of these 10 cars, one was believed to be an L78, one a L35, and the remaining 8 being L48's. These are not the 8 "-"/COPO coded Blue nose, blue toppers that were driven by the lower Zone, Track, or other assigned drivers.

We know the owner of one possible car.

1. 05A C-4 396 N214222 NOR114556 "black nose" Manual Drums/Hupcaps, Manual Steering, Impala wheel, Column shift Turbo 400, tinted windshield, manual top, 8 track


OK.... does anyone have anything to share about this group of car or more cars for the possible list?

If you have information to share, please respond on here or feel free to email me at rhexemerjr@yahoo.com

****DISCLAIMER****: The inclusion of any car on this non "-"/RPO coded list in no way, shape or form implies that these cars were originally intended by the dealership's to be what we are calling a "RPO Dealer Replica" pace cars. I'm sure that several were not and were simply regular cars to the dealership and owner. Each and every car needs to have the appropriate research, documents, and/or photos going back to the original dealership and/or owners which confirms that these cars were indeed represented and/or sold by the dealerships as "RPO Dealership Replicas" to the general public, orderer, buyer, and/or Zone office. With such documents its our hope that we can substantiate what these cars were or weren't so the present owners know what they have. If you have any questions or information please contact us here at this website.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RickDawn67,

quote:

At this time I do not believe we have documents to show if they were sold at the dealership with either a blue or black stripe and if they came with stickers on the doors, etc.

We also have no proof that any of the Black nosers were ever repainted blue!

I believe that we are safe to assume that Norwood 05C car's could be delivered by race time.... 05D is pushing it.

quote:

I believe that we are safe to assume that Norwood 05C car's could be delivered by race time.... 05D is pushing it.

Makes sense... So perhaps we should consider moving the 05C's to the upper list???

Your list..Your call!

Cars were brought in up until days before the race....
Where exactly all of them came from is not known!

quote:

Your list..Your call!

Cars were brought in up until days before the race....
Where exactly all of them came from is not known!

Tony,

Makes sense, I've shifted the list.

OK guys... what other comments or information do you have to share (good, bad, pesky, need aspirin???)

I'm open to anything/everything as long as it eventually leads us to the facts on these controversual cars!

Robert's response:

Wow!
This is total Bliss
Now we are accounting for all the production cars that look like pace cars made in the first half of 1967. because some or all of the dealers
wanted to get in on the pacesetter sale.
Our pace car group should exclude these cars that were not in the original COPO as well as those that were not built after the month of May.
I think these cars (could be) replica-replica's
But not original replica's as I think we are saying.
Could there be an Ice Capades car in this group as well?
Who was the most single person in charge of giving the authorization to giving all of these variables to THE PACE CAR DISTRIBUTION AND BUILD OUT'S
Geeze: I need an aspirin

RickDawn67 response:
Robert,

I'm not saying these were/are pace cars, just possible dealer replicas or replica-replicas and have broken them down before and after the race. We need to determine what (if anything) was done to the nose stripes as there's been lots of stories. And did any of these car ever get door stickers? Just what did the dealerships do (or not do) is what needs to be found out within this group as we're the experts and people look to us for the facts. So I'm attempting to gather facts with everyone's help....


Tom McGinnity:
I'll admit to wondering what facts lead to the 1993 statement that dealers fudged their own IPC's


Tony ( BigBlockPace )Quote:
And did any of these car ever get door stickers?

I believe this is very probable!

If dealers were going to sell these cars as Indy Cars, the odds are they would come with decals when requested.

Tony ( BigBlockPace ) quote:
I'll admit to wondering what facts lead to the 1993 statement that dealers fudged their own IPC's

Stories that were sent in and vintage adds is my guess!


RickDawn67 quote:
quote:
I'll admit to wondering what facts lead to the 1993 statement that dealers fudged their own IPC's

Stories that were sent in and vintage adds is my guess!

RickDawn67 Response:
Yep! Vintage 90's Stories, Various pace car articles interviewing Matt Murphy, the pace setter ads, and people responding to Donna Crispino's and Hooper Indy Pace Car Book!!!

Lots of suggestions that these Dealership "Black Nose" cars indeed existed and possibly tracked through the end of June!


Tom McGinnity response:
Yea but of all those people...why nobody right now admitting to it?

We've never seen proof of stickers available over the counter.. No part number in books, nothin

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RickDawn67,

quote:

Tom McGinnity response:
Yea but of all those people...why nobody right now admitting to it?

Yeah Tom, That's strange.... I'm asking them to step up to the plate now, but perhaps they aren't looking at our site??? Anyone out there???

I know of someone who has/had a 67 05D car (no dash). I can get VIN for you. He was wondering the same thing about possibilities of his car for pacer duty,status.
Rick, I think you are doing great work here. I think you should start a Excell spreadsheet with ANY info you gather on any of these cars and people can send their info to you to track it and catalog it.
The people with the cars are the only people who reaaly can assist by giving you the info you need to get something started, see a pattern, whatever.
Once you have a spreadsheet with the info, I'm sure there is a way to post it here and people can watch it unfold.
As your post gets longer people won't have all the info in front of them, like a spreadsheet would.
Just an idea. Let me know if you want the info on the 05D car.

David,

Thanks for the suggestion... The Excel sheet has been started as I'm an engineer!!

Yes, please send the VIN, cowl tag, and steering wheel, power or manual steering/brakes, wheels/hubcaps, stripe color, guages, etc. etc, contact information.... Whatever you can share and it will be logged with the rest.

And this sheet will be posted and available for all to see/access at any time.

In theory if a car was ordered "special" excluding the stripe it would also carry the special paint instruction dash after the final grouping.

quote:

In theory if a car was ordered "special" excluding the stripe it would also carry the special paint instruction dash after the final grouping

Would this apply to all RS SS cars, or just pacers?

quote:

In theory if a car was ordered "special" excluding the stripe it would also carry the special paint instruction dash after the final grouping.

Pat, I've asked that question to Tony and Donna and they both said that "stripe delete" cars would not necessarily show anything special on the cowl tag (no 0 or "-" codes). It would only appear on the order paperwork and not the cowl tag...

So can you tell us more about this, as we need to be sure about this and I know your really up on these things. Thanks!!!

quote:

Tom McGinnity response:
We've never seen proof of stickers available over the counter.. No part number in books, nothin

Tom,

I believe that there indeed was a sticker part number available for the dealership's parts department as they needed to do this in case they needed to be replaced.

Pats right.. leaving all replica replicas with black paint under the blue and not just added blue stripe...unless rs only of course with no added factory stripe.

Lets also not loose site of the fact that Chevy was pushing a free accent band on sixers etc for the Pacesetter sale.. they wanted volume and numbers.. sure they made more on rs ss converts but they had a Mustang to best..

I'd love to see someone come forward with doc's or oral history of one of these cars.. Like a dealer invoice that lists the options touted in the advertisement with " no charge" written next to them

No one is sure I think

Find me the number... Tons of guys have original dealer parts department books and there is zero mention throughout the whole spectrum ( 1967 thu like 1972)

I also have never seen NOS door decals

I theorize Chevy COPO'ed them and that was that. 99% of them were stripped off anyway after the Festivities rendering replacements mute

quote:

Pats right.. leaving all replica replicas with black paint under the blue and not just added blue stripe...unless rs only of course with no added factory stripe.

Tom,

I'm not sure that everyone agrees with the stripe delete having to be a "-" coded car????

We need to discuss this more....

quote:

I also have never seen NOS door decals

I theorize Chevy COPO'ed them and that was that. 99% of them were stripped off anyway after the Festivities rendering replacements mute

Tom,

If they were indeed COPO'd what would be the process for a dealer to get a set if they were trying to create a replica or replica-replica in the showroom? There had to be a way to get these stickers if you were in-the-know, Indy Zone, etc.

The 10 RS/SS non "-", non COPO coded, C-4, black nose, Indy "Zone" blue toppers had stickers!!! So how did they round them up??? I suspect that dealerships in the Indy Zone (25) which also extended into western Ohio, the Norwood Zone (09), and the mideast region (54) which included both Zones 09 and 25 could have easily got their hands on these stickers...

quote:

I suspect that dealerships in the Indy Zone (25) which also extended into western Ohio, the Norwood Zone (09), and the mideast region (54) which included both Zones 09 and 25 could have easily got their hands on these stickers...

And their appears to be a repeating pattern on these replica and replica-replica cars.... Most, if not ALL from either Indiana or Ohio?Hummm....

So could they have only been available from Zone 9 or 25????

quote:

And their appears to be a repeating pattern on these replica and replica-replica cars.... Most, if not ALL from either Indiana or Ohio?Hummm....

Rick,
I would have thought most the interest in these cars would have been centered close to Indy, which is what your results may show. I would be very surprised if you find any replica replica type cars from say, Wyoming or Kansas. The main center of interest would have been where the Indy cars were raced. Thats what I would think anyway.

Here's one of the two reasons I think we need to confirm or deny that "-"/COPO code would be required for a stripe delete. Tony, I'm sure your ok with me sharing....

Tony ( BigBlockPace ) Posted 06 December 2007:

"Hi Rick,

It's been reported that the Stripe Delete code is the - as found on the cowl tags but I have my doubts as to that being 100% true.
So! Another words, I would say no..there is nothing that indicates a stripe delete on a cowl tag."

I also asked the same question awhile back to Donna and she agrees with Tony.

SO, based on this and Pat's/Tom's beliefs (whom I GREATLY respect!), how can we confirm or deny what the facts are on stripe delete? Lets talk more about this!

I love it when we don't all agree as this should hopefully lead to the facts as long as everyone play's nice....

I'll moderate like I do in the engineering meetings....

Years ago I think we battled with this with others like CRG etc about the meanings of a great many Trim Tag things.. The dash is on 67 Yenkos and other special paint cars like Mary Kay jobs..
One thing CRG has taught me is that GM thought like a robot...( end of what CRG thinks the rest is mine) and assumed ignorance in the employees and their need for guidance.. To that end I sway towards the belief that the dash told them quite simply to snap out of the assembly line funk and pay attention to this special situation.. aka no stripe or a different color stripe or what have you..

Look at it this way : How WOULD they convey to the paint department not to stripe a car that deserved a stripe by the daily standards

I agree with Steve that you'll find these cars coming from the epicenter.. Take it from "New England Tom" over here.. few gave a crap on this end of the country

Regardless of whose theory pans out about the door decals, the fact remains no one has ever found a part number...I suspect heavy Zone involvement correlated with the promotions type departments.. I bet phone calls needed to be made for replacement decals.

I am very curious if anyone knows of any Pacecar that left as a dealer car WITH decals???

Not trying to fall off your track.. just emphasizing that an important little part is finding out if these decals could even be had at the time

quote:

Years ago I think we battled with this with others like CRG etc about the meanings of a great many Trim Tag things.. The dash is on 67 Yenkos and other special paint cars like Mary Kay jobs..
One thing CRG has taught me is that GM thought like a robot...( end of what CRG thinks the rest is mine) and assumed ignorance in the employees and their need for guidance.. To that end I sway towards the belief that the dash told them quite simply to snap out of the assembly line funk and pay attention to this special situation.. aka no stripe or a different color stripe or what have you..

Look at it this way : How WOULD they convey to the paint department not to stripe a car that deserved a stripe by the daily standards

well Tom.... that sure does make sense!!!
I'd have to say a "-" or Something easily detected would need to be somewhere so the standard stripe was NOT painted...

Anyone else care to comment here? Tony?, Pat?, anybody???