I'm hoping to find out who at the Indy Motor Speedway and what member(s) of USAC that were assigned pace cars before the race in 67. Do we know this information? I wanted to contact Tony, but don't have a updated email for him.

Does anyone have a list of Speedway and USAC officials names who may have been given pace cars as part of there assignments back in 67?

Possibilities:

IMS Speedway: Hulman (President), Fengler (Chief Stewart), Fowler (Flagman)

USAC: Clendenen (Midwest Zone Supervisor), Vance (Division Supervisor), ??? (Champ Car Division Supervisor)


Thanks.

Rick

Hi Rick!!!!
The emails are still up and running but I don't really check them that much.....
Try facebook when you need a quick answer......
The Speedway 10 as listed in the 67 Activity Book was for the 10 Officers, Directors and Management of the Speedway... The Zone Brass Hat cars were available to the USAC guys.
We have photos of the Speedway 10 being delivered although it only shows 5 or 6 Pacers in the line up...I've been told that indeed all 10 were delivered but they decided for "Photo Balance" to leave the other 4 or 5 replicas out of the photo....

Hulman took the keys from Jack Bell ( Check our vintage picture section ) and the other 9 were assigned the replicas but most of these folks actually ended up with other Chevrolets for their two month assignment.... Most likely Impalas according to Bill Gerard, who over saw all the Chevrolets actually assigned to the track.

Here is list of the Speedway 10 assignees:

1 Tony Hulman**
2 J.R. Cloutier
3 Leonard B. Marshall
4 Sam Hanks
5 Clarence Cage
6Frances E. Derr
7 Joe Quinn
8 Al Bloemker
9 Frances Welker
10 J. H Jones*

* J. H. Jones was usually always assigned a pace car but being the Track Photographer, always would end up trading his assignment in for a larger vechical....in 1967 he had one of the Impala 396 Wagons!!!

** Tony Hulman was assigned a replica ( # 52 ) but for sure ended up with an Impala. The same is true with a number of the names on the above list but these two are the only two documented as having assignment changes
Some of the USAC guys did get replicas but according to what was shared with me much fewer than we would believe do to the shortage of replicas available.

Tony , Great information.

Anyone ever tried all or any of these guys been tracked down and seen if they have information or pics to help answer some of the mysteries?

OK I couldnt wait , probably information already known but here goes.

1 Tony Hulman - passed away October 27, 1977. We know he got car # 52 (photos and docs support this?)

2 J.R. Cloutier - passed away December 11 , 1989. Son is Joseph A Cloutier , still lives in Terre Haute, IN. (812) 232-4030. Probably a business number... Car number unknown - anyone want to ring and research?


Come on guys lots of research left here in just this list alone.

If we do a little research and attempt to contact families and see if they can offer us any assistance with either photos or documents of the car their relatives (more than likely now passed on)were involved in , when making history from 1967. What family member wouldnt want to assist glorifying their relatives memories??

Anyone want to ring the guy #2 in the list ?

Alternatively what about some research into the people or families or contact numbers. Every little piece helps out.

I believe #5 Clarence Cagel in the list is being chased by Larry K and if my assumptions are correct we will find he was given car # 50. This is yet to be confirmed.


I would like to be more involved but distance is the killer for me on this one as well as lack of time.

Tony , what were the people in the lists involvement in the 67 Indy?

Hi Geoff!

Cagel passed sometime ago....... Hulman's number #52 is the first replicas out of the group of 10..... # 50 was one of the Impala Wagons.
The pacers that were apart of the Speedway 10 were numbered 52-61

Here are the titles to the above 10 guys I listed

1. President

2. Vice President

3. Secretary

4. Director of Racing

5 Superintendent

6 Director of Ticket Sales

7 Safety Director

8 Publicity Director

9 Auditor

10 Official Photographer

Do we know who at USAC received cars?

I'm afraid that info was lost with all the Zone assignments.....
According to both the Zone guys that I spoke to and who handled almost all the local assignments.... USAC "Got their car's" but they were rarely happy with the quanty they recieved during the Festival.
So....since there was a shortage of replicas in 67, your guess would be as good as mine on how many actually went to the USAC!!
You may also want to keep in mind that since USAC headquarters was right down the street from the IMSW USAC could request and receive cars well after the event as was proven with the 1969 Paper work that I remember posting for one of the 69 Festival car owners!!!

With that famous picture of #52 in front of the gates to the track its pretty easy to understand why the car was there and what batch it belonged to..especially with that confirmed list. The two quasi groups that have me puzzled are..

#1 The group of trailering cars with numbers like 117 & 116.. These cars did not have the gold Festival Medallions so we know they are not part of the initial committment..and we know they were not the Tracks ( USAC ) cars because the list exists..One would assume with sky high numbers they were the last to arrive.. So whose cars were they that they were available to be modified and "at the ready" for the parade? Maybe they weren't anybodies and were strickly designated to pull the floats? They are the ones that had front plates like the #1 Team ones you reproduced Who the heck did that and why.. could those cars be overflow for the USAC crowd.. That would explain how they had the time to modify them for towing and have them loaded and ready at the track with the trailers and vintage racers early on parade morning

#2 The cars in my group like 77, 78 & 79.. They are 04A so they are not initial committment cars..( no medallion I would suspect) Why have neither of these three cars reared their heads in any way ...no vintage photos...no lists of committment, no trailering physical evidence...nothing! Could they have been loaned to lesser persons or persons who didn't participate in the hard core activities? The answer may lie in the fact that the official documents we do have list the actual Pacer as #78.. We know this to be completely untrue.. what the heck happened that there was a disconnect in the numbering system and the real cars ended up being called 90 & 92 ( much higher numbers).. There must be a clue to that groups use in that...We just aren't seeing it

Clearly this car was assigned to the track or associate... This car is looking quite obligated to the track itself and I hardly think it made ist way to some guys driveway that evening

Clearly it has a blue vinyl # just not legible.. This car is seemingly parked inside the bowels of the track and not lined up in the Flag Lot or what have you..

Tom.... I understand your confusion but I think you may be over thinking it a bit........

Here's the basics...........

Two completely separate Pace Car Programs being run from the same location at the same time........ The Pace Car room at the Speedway Hotel was location.
This was part of the actual plan to win the Pace Car honors for Chevrolet in 1967.
First plan is the " Commitment Cars " This plan is detailed in the 1967 Pace Car Activities Booklet.... Although the numbering system doesn't hold up to what vintage pictured proved happened everything else does according to Gerrard and Welday.
Basically if you see a Blue numbered replica, you are looking at a Commitment Car. And yes... They were numbered based off of delivery time! Also..... It makes it easier to remind yourself that the Commitment cars can be broken down into 5 groups......

1. Festival Commitee Cars: 1-48 (44-48 are Impala Wagons)

All of the Festival Commitee cars and only the Festival Commitee Cars received the Gold Quarter Panel Decal. So!!... If you see a replica that has a Blue number but it doesn't have the Quarter Panel Decal, all that means is it's still apart of the Commitment but not apart of the Festival Commitee Cars.

2. Speedway 10: Numbers 52-61 No Quarter Panel Decals

3. All the rest of the replicas including the "Extra Groups" that I told you that Welday remembered being able to be ordered are all Brass Hat Cars!! These extra cars are the reason the numbering system set forth in the Activity Booklet is off!!!!
One of these actual extra groups we can actually document as being an order of 12 replicas.... numbers 78 - 89 . Higher numbers such as Geoff's are also Brass Hat cars....

4. Pace Cars: Numbers 90-92

5. Display Cars: Numbers 124*- ? ( My feeling 2-3 cars )

All the other local replicas were out of the "Zone Program" which was apart of an expanded Company Car Program that covers cars such as my old Big Block and the Black nose Bluetoppers!

* Remember the Black Ass Flag Car with the blue number 124?
Gerrard felt there was for sure two cars maybe three from this group in the local Indy area....the question is..... could there have been others??! Perhaps on display at the Design Center in Detroit or anywhere else for that matter???

Oh!!!! BTW!! I should of added ....... All the other Zone replicas didn't have any sort of known numbering system!!!!! So!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No Blue numbers!!!!

Tony,

Lots of great information!

Were the "Zone cars" you refered to and the "Brass Hat cars" one in the same? I assume the Zone blue toppers were Zone cars, but were they also considered the brass hat cars? What group supplied cars to the USAC officials?

According to IMS historian (Donald Dickenson)most of the USAC officials back then lived in and around the Dayton area, holding regular jobs and working on the side for USAC (Indy/Champ, Spint, Midget,and Stock car) series. There was a bunch of dirt and ashphalt tracks around the tri-state area that featured USAC races (Eldora, Salem, Dayton, New Bremen, etc. etc.)

I believe they may have used there the Camaro pace cars for more then just the Indy 500 in 67 (as you also suggested and I saw referred to in the 1969 section).

I also believe its possible these camaros were driven on or around the Dayton area and possibly used at other USAC events as official or pace cars in more then just the Champ series.

I found some pictures showing other year IPCs (68 Torino and 69 Camaro pace cars being used at Dayton Speedway, but the 69 car was probably one of the nine NASCAR track pacers on loan?

I'm gathering the USAC officials names from 67 that oversaw these USAC tracks/events and trying to see if they were the same people that were assigned the pace cars back in 67. Your mention that the speedway may have loaned them cars is interesting as the IMS officials indeed interacted with the USAC guys overseeing these tracks/events.

I think there was a lot we don't know yet about how these cars were utilized not only at Indy, but also elsewhere... I also think later cars may have been ordered and provided to support various duties at other tracks after people saw all the Pace cars in and around Indy (first hand and on TV) in May. This would explain why we keep seeing dealership replica pace cars (RPO ordered after 05C and through 06C or 06D). If the IPC's were indeed hard to get rid of at delearships why were more cars built? Perhaps for Racing (the L78's), Chevrolet Dealership Showroom displays, or other series/tracks pace car duties.

We have seen a Indy pace cars (or similar outfittred cars) being used at a road course race (probably SCCA), at other USAC Indy/Champ car events in 67 (Mosport Indy Race, these were the 06C cars), and I think they were used at many other racing events later in 67.

I expect a lot of these cars had some history to them that's pretty exciting....


Yes, this is a radical thought, but it makes sense to me. There are just too many of these cars showing up!!!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RickDawn67,

quote:

Were the "Zone cars" you refered to and the "Brass Hat cars" one in the same? I assume the Zone blue toppers were Zone cars, but were they also considered the brass hat cars? What group supplied cars to the USAC officials?

Yes!!!! All "Zone Cars" are also considered Brass Hat Cars. There is a chance that USAC may have been entitled cars from both groups originally but since my two contacts, who actually handled the assignments, seemed to feel and then later suggest that USAC and their requests couldn't really be met that they may have been able to be handled their needs better through the Zone Program.... This would be simply because Chevrolet would of been more likely able to reassign their people vehicles more so than the TRADITIONS that they tried to maintain with the Commitment Cars.

quote:

I'm gathering the USAC officials names from 67 that oversaw these USAC tracks/events and trying to see if they were the same people that were assigned the pace cars back in 67.

I believe I've already crossed referrenced all the USAC names I saw mentioned in any of the Indy programs with no luck finding any hits!!....
However...There was a ton of USAC members so there is no way I'm trying to suggest I checked them all!

quote:

If the pace cars were indeed hard to get rid of at delearships why were more cars built?

I'm not really sure that is a correct thought to have!!!! Chevrolet sold all of it's 67 Pace Cars that were available for sale prior to Thanksgiving 1967....And mostly, just in the Indy area...... It is true that all the dealerships were concerned that they would sit around as dogs on their lots but according to my interviews...... Chevrolet was very pleased!!! 1969....Well that was a different story!!!!

Another thing to keep in mind is that an Ermine White with a Blue Deluxe RS/SS was available from August 1966 through July or late June 1967........ True.... A ton sure do seem to be built after the deadline but it's very hard to just say because it's all do to the Pace Car Program!! That's just an opinion though!!

quote:

All the other local replicas were out of the "Zone Program" which was apart of an expanded Company Car Program that covers cars such as my old Big Block and the Black nose Bluetoppers!

* Remember the Black Ass Flag Car with the blue number 124?
Gerrard felt there was for sure two cars maybe three from this group in the local Indy area....the question is..... could there have been others??! Perhaps on display at the Design Center in Detroit or anywhere else for that matter???

Perhaps the display cars were these two L78 cars? 05C and sequential body numbers (order accepted together at Fisher Body)


20 RPO Replica Dave Nelson 124677N221419 05C C-1 124677NOR120965 732-Z 396/375 4-speed 2LG 3SL 4K 5Y R
21 RPO Replica Bob McDorman 124677N221183 05C C-1 124677NOR120966 732-Z 396/375 4-speed 2LGR 3SL 4K 5Y R

quote:

Perhaps the display cars were these two L78 cars? 05C and sequential body numbers (order accepted toghter at Fisher Body)

I don't believe so......... However I do believe we have 2 of the cars..... We have back to back Fisher line numbered 0-1 L78s...... One of the two is still in Indiana and the other came from a retired Chevrolet Engineer who claimed it was a actual Pace Car....... We do know it's not one of the 3 ( # 90-92 ) but who's to say it couldn't be 124 or 125????

quote:

I believe I've already crossed referrenced all the USAC names I saw mentioned in any of the Indy programs with no luck finding any hits!!....

Tony,

Can you please share the 1967 USAC officials names you have?

From the IMS Historian I have Russ Chadenen (USAC Midwest Zone Manager), and Johnny Vance. These guys actually lived near Dayton like many other USAC officials, but would drive to Indy.

I see the IMS Chief Stewart (Harlan Fengler sp?) was not on the list of 10 speedway officials that got cars, thats strange??? He also lived near Dayton and was close to Hulman.

quote:

Can you please share the 1967 USAC officials names you have?

This may take sometime to dig up..... So please understand that it may take a few days!

quote:

I see the IMS Chief Stewart (Harlan Fengler sp?) was not on the list of 10 speedway officials that got cars, thats strange??? He also lived near Dayton and was close to Hulman.

Yes!!! I do agree it's strange he didn't seem to be apart of that group but then again...... The 10 directors and top management are just Excutive Positions..... This is not to say he didn't get a car....... We have an assignment for one of the track announcers!!!
I tracked down his son still living in Indiana..... He remembered the car well......( Great Short Story ) His father had the car for only 1 to 2 weeks...... I think it's your perfect example of the Speedway Brass Hat Tradition being fulfilled!!!

Hey Rick!!!!

Thanks by the way!!!...... I had almost forgot how much I loved this hobby and the work I loved doing!!

Tony it looks like your having fun again. Keep going ....

quote:

Originally posted by RickDawn67:
According to IMS historian (Donald Dickenson),,,

I believe they may have used there the Camaro pace cars for more then just the Indy 500 in 67 (as you also suggested and I saw referred to in the 1969 section).

Donald Davidson

As the story goes, (I believe it was in an issue of an old SUPER CHEVY article on #92), Chevrolet was contacting dealers and taking bids on #92 in '68. Dan Young bid $2000 knowing that the car was used for pacing duties at other race tracks around the country for the season and was most likely "rode hard and put away wet." His bid was immediately accepted and he actually sent a trailer to get it thinking it wasn't in too good of condition. He was no doubt quite pleased at the cars condition when it arrived.